Saturday, February 20, 2016

Titebond III Second Test

I made up a test sample of two pieces of 1/2 inch marine fir plywood approximately 3 feet square.  I applied Titebond 3  to one piece only with a paint brush, and spread it out to a reasonably heavy coat.  I waited about 7 minutes before laying the second piece on top.  The second piece had a 6 inch grid penciled there upon.  Using my knees to apply pressure as close as possible to the nail position, I drove 3/4" 15 gauge Raptor polymer nails at each grid line intersection.  The nail gun was set to countersink the nail about 1/8" below the surface so there is a bout 3/8" grip into the bottom piece.

I let it cure for a day and a half.



I then got out the table saw and ripped the sample up into strips approximately 1-1/2 inches wide.



All of the strips were perfectly glued without voids.

Conclusion is:

I'm going to laminate my subsequent layers with Titebond 3, nailing with Raptor nails on a six inch grid while applying manual pressure at the nailing location.


23 comments:

  1. Great test! Kudos to a man of science!

    The irony is that the gods set raptors to work on Prometheus' liver; now you've got them working for you. 8)

    Dave Z

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    1. "Great test! Kudos to a man of science!"

      Hear, hear! Don't see enough of that elsewhere, in my opinion, and really appreciate it.

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  2. May I suggest one more panel on your lug mainsail?

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  3. As far as the rig goes it's all up in the air. I'll need to start settling down to some hard decisions down the line for sure. I may just put a post out there asking the question: What would you do for a rig if this was your boat? Everyone so far has been very supportive but I don't think anyone wants to hurt my feelings either. If I'm doing something that goes against the grain of others with more experience and knowledge than I have, I sure want to hear about it. I'll have a good cry and then it will be over with :-)

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    1. That could be fun and you'd probably get a LOT of responses. You could offer a 6-pak of fine Canadian beer as a prize. Rig romanticism rules the day..... anyone critical of another mans rig, especially a functional rig, is treading ignorant ground: like criticizing some guys wife he loves. She might be ornery, or ugly, but obviously the guy loves her and it's working for HIM. That said I like redheads in women and low aspect rigs. :)

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  4. Might be water under the bridge by now, but in case not ...

    * Clamping Method: If you change your mind about the chest pressure thingee, in addition to padding it well, make the chest platform bigger. I've done something similar in the past, and it caused more chest pain than I anticipated, and after a shorter time than I would have guessed.

    * Raptor Nails: Though you likely know this, those plastic nails are great for tensile strength (even fuse with the wood), but crappy in sheer strength. For that reason, the company specifically says not to use them in any structural application. Maybe the glue negates that concern, but I wanted to mention it.

    Following with great interest.

    Yoda

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  5. Crap, did it again. Don't think I'll ever get used to checking that damn box each time. Wonder why Blogger doesn't turn "notify" on by default? Anyway, on with the show.

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  6. Thanks for the comments and compliments! The Raptor nails are pretty much being used as clamps. I'm confident enough with the strength of the Titebond 3 from experience and from what I have read about it too. It is true that the manufacturer does not recommend it be used below the waterline in an immersion situation... as does the manufacturer of PL Premium... I believe this to be lawyer speak. In any case if I go with copper sheathing on the bottom I will use bronze screws long enough to penetrate all of the ply layers thereby creating mechanical fastening of the ply (redundant I hope).

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  7. Although about 10 years old now, this article documents a well-conceived and executed glue comparison test. Time might have passed a bit, but the major glues seem to be the same. And the best news for you, Alan, is ... Titebond III was the winner:

    www.oldbrownglue.com/pdf/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdf

    Notes:
    1. The article is posted on the "Old Brown Glue" website, but they didn't conduct the tests.
    2. Gorilla Glue came in last -- almost half the strength of TB III.
    3. The tests did not include any exposure to water. More for woodworker application.

    Personally, the admonition against below-waterline use about TB III still concerns me (for my own use on the hull). Almost seems that it is wonderful as long as .... For boat applications, the "as long as" part bugs me. Guess you can't have everything. And at some point, we all have to stop thinking, choose, and glue! :)

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  8. I have very seriously re-visted the idea of a copper bottom and even sought further advice and commentary from Dave in a private email that he generously provided. My conclusion however, is that I simply can't justify the cost. Copper plate here in BC sits somewhere around $6.00 Cdn a lb. This really pisses me off too. We have the second largest copper mine in the world a two hour drive from here. The concentrated ore all goes to China and the States. The copper plate comes out of the States and our low dollar - a result of that whole tar sand energy delusion - precludes me from buying any.

    I mention that here only because everything will now be protected with fiberglass and epoxy... sealing it all in. I don't think the Titebond 3 joints will ever get damp even.

    Oy yeah... did I say fiberglass instead of Dynel? Well, no one stocks Dynel up here so I'd have to import it from You Know Where. Bummer.

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    1. "Haters gonna hate"! ;-)

      Don't think a lot of Americans aren't tired of the hegemony as well. That said (mandatory patriotic plug), all countries are certainly welcome to stop importing Hollywood movies, music, and iPhones any time they want and develop superior home-grown products.

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    2. P.S. - And yes, it is particularly annoying to live in a place where something is produced and not be able to buy it, either because they sell it all abroad or it's still too stinkin' expensive. I think Karl Marx had something to say about that last part. Brings back a funny memory. In high school, we were assigned to read The Communist Manifesto. Yep, in good ole 'Merika believe it or not and small-town to boot. Anyway, prior to that, my concept of Communist was simple -- a synonym for "evil". So, I read the book with a mixture of trepidation and self-righteousness. Got to the end, was perplexed, and spontaneously said, "Well, that's not so bad". I actually went back, paging through the book, to look for the obviously evil part that I must have missed. Never found it. hahaha

      Good memory.

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    3. Well for the record I'm not pissed off at Americans. I'm pissed off at those who yank us both around. In Canada we have never had, and probably will never have a government that will protect the interests and birthright of our citizens. So all of our natural resources are owned by big business - from wherever - to promote 'economic growth' which really means making the bottom line look good over the next quarter. A case in point: Our wheat board is now owned by Cargill and more importantly the Saudi Arabians, who dumped the price of oil to kill the energy sector in Canada AND the USA. Guess who is buying up that stock right now?

      Anyway Yoda, I'll remind you (with tongue firmly implanted in cheek) that Blackberry is a Canadian product...and a lot of the best talent in Hollywood these days hails from somewhere far north of Hollywood :-)

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    5. "Anyway Yoda, I'll remind you (with tongue firmly implanted in cheek) that Blackberry is a Canadian product...and a lot of the best talent in Hollywood these days hails from somewhere far north of Hollywood :-)"

      Alaska???

      Roundly chastised! Yeah, I sort of noticed lately that most of the American heroes are fake stand-ins from one of them other sort-of English speaking places ;-). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGuGzH3Ne5w

      Oh, and don't forget, that every movie that is set in a beautiful, majestic and wild part of the U.S. is actually shot in British Columbia. Gotta love that.

      Granted, we've got plenty of boneheaded people in the U.S., but for the most part, "they" screw the majority of the normal American population as bad as they do anyone else ... except those remote countries with no rule of law, dictators, and generous dictator slush funds.

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    6. One point... Dynel was the original proprietary name for what is essentially plain ol' acrylic weave. Some still sell it as dynel, but you can likely find LOTS of suppliers of light acrylic woven cloth.

      Dave Z

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  9. There a guy in your neck of the woods who built a tiny boat. http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?197515-PDRacer-microcruiser
    he coated the bottom with linex
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4jk6l7hWKk

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    1. Thanks Everitt... I'm going to look into that. I've seen it in trucks and it is very tough!

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    2. Your welcome.
      I like that little boat, the Gorfnick, I think he called it.
      I might actually build it. If that works I might try something larger.
      Good luck.

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  10. Here is an epilogue of sorts to my Titebond 3 test.

    Shortly after this original post, I took one of those strips and cut it into 2 inch pieces. I took five of them and put them in a slow cooker and let them simmer for two days. I took one more and put it into a mason jar of water to soak until now. The cooked samples were removed from the slow cooker and subjected to the following test while still hot and wet. I tried to twist them apart in a vice with a lock jaw pliers and could not. I then broke them apart at the glue line with a cold chisel and hammer. They broke along the glue line but not cleanly. The glue bond seemed to be somewhat weaker than the actual plywood glue, as the plywood itself did not split cleanly along the glue joints. It was still a pretty good glue joint under the circumstances in my opinion.

    Just this morning I took my unboiled sample from the mason jar. It has been soaking for about 7 weeks and was thoroughly water soaked. I split it with a hammer and cold chisel at the glue joint and it did not break cleanly at all. The wood fiber gave up before the glue did.

    My conclusion is that even if I boil Autarkia she'll still hold together, however under normal conditions Titebond 3 is every bit as strong as the glue used to manufacture the plywood. And that is from a close fitting glue joint, quite rich with glue, and without significant pressure upon assembly.

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  11. Al, what can I say ... my hat's off to you! Awash in a world of bullshit and guessing, you're Bill Nye the Boat Science Guy. My new hero! Well done. Really. Truly. Etc.

    Thanks for not only being so diligent, but for informing us of your results. Makes me feel better about TBIII in general.

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  12. Thanks Yoda. I just realized that the soak period was more like 5 weeks instead of 7. Thought I should clear that up.

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  13. "Thanks Yoda. I just realized that the soak period was more like 5 weeks instead of 7. Thought I should clear that up."

    OK. Well, I guess that makes you 5/7 * Amazing. But that's still pretty stinkin' good, right? ;-)

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